Regarding "A Statement to the Community At Large"

(a.k.a. Vyrdolak's "People Like Me" Post)

(Key posts from a discussion taken from SonjaBlue's Vampire, Psi and Occult Phenomena Discussion Board and Sanguinarius's Vampiric Community Message Board.)

From SonjaBlue's Vampire, Psi and Occult Phenomena Discussion Board:

Amy Krieytaz
Labels and bigotry
Sat Sep 12 15:06:37 1998


Jack wrote:

How about "people" :) I'm sorry, but imho, even calling us vampires is a label, and a grossly ambiguious one at that.

Agreed about the ambiguity of the label "vampire." Indeed, ONE of the aims of the discussions about terminology that took place in early 1998 (before you arrived on the scene?) was to find clearer and less confusing alternatives to the word "vampire."

[Jack:]  I do realize the neccesity for definition though. But why should we split hairs any more than that? Why should we come up with completely arbitrary labels for this kind of vampire or that? What possible purpose can it serve? People will always come up with labels for themselves to make it easier to diffine themselves and escape having to know themselves. Let them.

There is a whole history behind the labels "sanguinarian" and "Arthenian." Do not condesecendingly assume that the purpose was for people to "escape having to know themselves."

[Jack:]  If people want to bring bigotry to a medium of ultimate equality bad enough, they will find a way. Vampires are vampires and bigots are bigots.

Actually, the labels "sanguinarian" and "Arthenian" played a major role in OVERCOMING bigorry. Early this year, the label "sanguinarian" helped greatly to reduce at least several then-influential blood vamps' felt need to monopolize the label "real vampire," by giving them an alternative label that they could call their own, while accepting psyvamps and Vampyre lifestylers as part of a larger "vampire community." Similarly, "Arthenian" was coined to counteract the idea that anyone who doesn't have an interchangeable craving for BOTH blood and psychic energy, or who doesn't score high on Inanna Arthen's Real Vampire Traits checklist [not available for viewing], isn't a "real vampire." In both cases, the new labels provided an alternative to fighting over the label "real vampire."

Now, it can be argued that it shouldn't matter whether other people think you're a "real vampire" or not. Indeed the label itself is just a word. Nevertheless, it did matter from the point of view of defining the COMMUNITY and who does and does not belong. I have argued, furthermore, that the community should welcome people who DON'T necessarily like to call themselves "vampires" for whatever reason, but who do have key traits in common with most self-described real vampires.

(I have also maintained that the DEGREE to which one has those traits should not matter. For example, it is common to define a blood vamp as someone who NEEDS to consume blood and doesn't just drink it for pleasure. But where do you draw the line between a "need" and a very strong desire? Do you "need" blood if you don't get sick without it but just get depressed? Do you "need" blood if you are occasionally subject to severe blood lust, but are nevertheless capable of waiting out the craving and can function just fine without actually consuming blood? Hence my advocacy of forums for "blood-drinkers" in general, without attempting to define those forums in terms of the kind or degree of one's need/desire for blood.)

Anyhow, the terms "sanguinarian" and "Arthenian" have always been somewhat controversial. Some people liked them and other people didn't. But the original discussions, which took place early this year, did play a key role in helping Sangi's site and message board become the inclusive forum that it is today, welcoming not only psivamps but also Vampyre lifestylers, who were previously dismissed as "posers and wannabees." (Not all the relevant discussion took place on the message board itself; much of it took place behind the scenes in E-mail, chat, and phone calls.) Sangi's Vampire Community Message Board is now the central hub of an online community that includes many other, more specialized forums.

Of course, now that Inanna Arthen herself has objected strongly to the term "Arthenian," it needs to be replaced.

[Jack:]  You can only change yourself,

With this oft-heard statement, I strongly disagree. There exist whole professions of well-paid people (salespeople, advertisers, etc.) who make a living by changing other people's opinions. In the noncommercial realm, lots of people's opinions have been changed by various social movements. And I personally have had great success in overcoming various kinds of bigotry on the part of some people.

[Jack:]  so why bother puting so much effort into such a futile exercise sucn as changing other people to fit your "deffinition".

My aim is not to change people to fit a definition, but rather to come up with terminology and definitions that help counteract bigotry. In my experience, the best way to accomplish this is NOT by attempting to erase all labels and subcategories, but rather to define the subcategories intelligently.

Amy

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Vyrdolak
A Statement to the Community at Large (long)
Sat Sep 26 21:18:15 1998


Well, this has certainly turned into an interesting week in what is loosely called the Online Vampire Community! The Equinox always seems to bring about a lot of changes. The last one... was last March, I shall say no more.

It appears that the strenuous efforts of some of us to unite vampire-oriented people under some sort of overreaching aegis (with categories, without categories, with labels, without labels, with gamers, without gamers...) has, like a gigantic rubberband, snapped and scattered in many directions. Too many vampire-oriented people put up too much resistance, feeling that their own reality was being "excluded" by their being asked to be "included" within more diversity than they were prepared to accept. This was already highly apparent in the various quarrels and debates anyway, but Sanguinarius' long message really crystalized this issue. Throughout her post rang one overwhelming need--and not for blood. Call it the PLM syndrome.

People Like Me.

And that seems to be why all of us are here, really. We're all looking for People Like Me, people who are what we are, who feel what we feel, who know us without needing to be told, who don't doubt because they've been there. And it's an elusive quarry, there's no question about it. I've finally had to face the fact that in my case, it's extremely elusive indeed. This was not my original hope when I first put up my own website, but then, none of the fruits of my own website have been what I expected. Among many other things, I had no idea what a fever of imagination I was going to unwittingly tap into. I'd been online for a couple of years, and in all the vampire-related Internet venues I'd lurked in or posted to, anyone presuming to any flavor of "real vampirism" was pretty much marginalized into non-existence (if not flamed into cinders). But six months after my site went up, other "real vampire" sites had appeared all over the web like mushrooms popping up after an October drizzle. As for the response my own site was getting by then--I constantly had to think of a "Far Side" cartoon of two mosquitos feeding, one of which is swelling up like a balloon as the other yells frantically, "Pull out, Joe, pull out! You've hit an artery!" My fictional vampires have a preternatural ability to hit the artery every time--I never dreamed that I had it, too. *wry smile*

But I never intended, or even wanted, to create a sort of all-inclusive "vampire community". I wanted to offer information, I wanted to expand upon the original FireHeart article, I wanted to help people who were confused and going through the things I had gone through and seen others go through while still unaware of what we were, but ultimately, I was just the same as Sangi. I wanted to find People Like Me. I assumed, correctly, that I'd have to sift through a lot of People Unlike Me to do that, but what I didn't understand was how desperate many of them would be.

It has ever been my curse to feel compelled to try and help the desperate. So I wrote to these people, and referred them to other information and other Internet venues as seemed most appropriate, and wrote to them and wrote to them and wrote to them, until finally I couldn't, anymore, because I didn't know what to say to them. They aren't People Like Me. I'm not sure who they are and what they want and why they want it so badly, but they aren't my people. I wanted to believe they could be, but they're not. And perhaps my site made them think they were, erroneously, although I didn't seem to be seeing this happen. For one thing, almost nobody who read my site appeared to grasp what I was actually saying! (Although this is probably my fault at least as much as any reader's.) It also became apparent that most people visiting my site, especially young people, read the checklists and nothing else. This obviously was creating some problems. But the whole site was obviously creating more problems than solutions. I never expected this. I expected lots of flames, lots of snide skeptical e-mail, and thought it would be very exciting if I got three or four thousand hits in the first year. I had absolutely no idea.

So I am now offering my public apologies for my website. I apologise that I seem to have flooded the world with a lot of poseur-psivamps and wannabees, when all I wanted was to find People Like Me. They're not here in the online vampire community, or they're choosing not to communicate with me. I have learned a lot about some different kinds of humans with interesting anomalies--very real, and objective, and deeply life-affecting anomalies, to be sure, but not what I have. I guess you do fit into "categories" after all (aside from the fact that you're all still humans). I don't know what makes you the way you are. Maybe someday someone will find out. But you're not People Like Me. And I apologise for wanting you to be so badly that I tried to pretend you were.

My site is being heavily revised, and when it comes back it will reflect my position much more accurately. There will still be lots there for human vampire-oriented people, whatever your anomaly is and however you choose to define, describe, and name it. If I can offer any help or advice, I will. But I won't offer it unasked. Some people who see my new site may accuse me of elitism, but I don't feel that way--I'm starting a discussion board that will be open for everyone, I'll have information on blooddrinking and information on psychic and energy training, no one is being zipped from my links page, I'll continue to refer letter-writers to others in the online vampire community without prejudice. There'll be news and transcripts and booklists and classifieds and general FAQs and editorials and other stuff, all of equivalent interest to all vampire-oriented people. We all certainly have a lot of the same interests, and a lot of similar concerns and challenges to face, and I still prefer to concentrate on what we have in common more than our differences. But I'll no longer hope to find People Like Me under every Internet bush. I've tossed in the towel (finally) on that one. And, the checklists won't be back, nor any other publically available "diagnostic" material or device.

I accept now that none of you believe in me--but that's okay, because why should you? As Sangi said, if you live something, you know it, if you don't, you can't have any idea. That's true for sufferers of any chronic disease, for victims of racism, for para- and quadri-plegics, for the blind, for people who are very psychically sensitive, for blood-lusters, for psivamps. If you wake up with it every day, you don't need proof or explanations. If you've never experienced it, it's beyond your imagination. I can only continue to pursue what I feel to be my life's work and purpose for existence, and keep on hoping (as do we all) that I will someday find more People Like Me.

Vyrdolak
(Inanna Arthen)

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Sasha
People Like Me (also loooooong)
Sat Sep 26 22:14:04 1998


Inanna,

thank you. If you had not said it, I could have said something similar.

It is like that: noone of us should even feel the need to apologize, it is simply not right. We all did our best, all of us with only the best in mind. I would have to apologize as well, because to my site happened nearly exactely the same as to yours. People come, fill my guestbook with turning requests, mail me about that they believe to be vampires and show nothing but secondary symptoms that could also anything else, but none of them seems to get the intention. But that is not our fault in the main. Some people just don't get the grasp. I have two major disclaimers on my page, and people simply overread it.

People believe what they want to believe. And if you break their little dream with facts, then you are the moron. I have pissed off many a person that came to me spilling their delusions and sending them back home with the advice to get a life. But I have also managed to help many people, and this is the reason why I do not feel sorry.

Maybe all the people who also feel not sorry should get a grasp on the situation and handle the mess we unintentionally caused. All we need is a precise speech and a little more directness about why we are doing what we are doing when it comes top such people. I have had to delete a turning request of a 13 year old kid from my guestbook, and I will continue doing so, simply because I do not want to get others in trouble or irritate them. I also delete stuff that is obviously written by psychos or gamers. NOT because I have something against them, but I simply don't want to lose the clear shape of my idea. Gamers are always welcome to discuss with me, but only when they make clear that they are gamers and curious about the issue. I won't accept people in my place that believe to be a 5000 year old dark elf that has been turned into a vampire (no kidding, one of my latest received mails contained JUST THIS). Ok, my place is not crowded, but the discussion is at least possible and aiming at something.

Enough ranting about my methods.

I support Canis idea, I would be the first to join, and I would have suggested something similar myself, if I did not know that my suggestion would simply be overheard, simply for the fact that it is ME who proposed it.

It will be hard work to regain integrity, and I am willing to do this work, but it needs more than this. It needs a handfullof people that want to achieve the same. No complaints about their own failures. We are in this sense only human. We need to start. And I will gladly halp anyone who is of the same idea, and I will also accept help opf anyone who will need it.

New start?

Sasha

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Sanguinarius
PLM (kinda longish, but read it anyway)
Sun Sep 27 04:39:34 1998


By Jove, I think you've got it, old bean! I just get so damned frustrated sometimes. I mean, I didn't mean to insult the psyvamps like I did. I jusat got carried away with my frustration and inadvertently ended up aleinating people when I shot off my mouth in the heat of feeling. I don't want to run of the psyvamps. Hell, I don't want to run off the Vampyre lifestylers, even! Like Vyrdolak said, I guess I'm looking for People Like Me.

And I am not a psyvamp. I can't relate to psyvamps very well. All of what they say, I just have to take their word for. If So-and-So says Whosit is attacking them in one of the IRC channels, for instance, I just have to take their word for it. And that leave open the whole wide arena of "just getting back at someone" coz you don't like them, or they irritated you. "Oh, I'll just complain to Sangi and say that they were attacking me!" I don't know that it is so; I don't know that it is NOT so, either. And I truly cannot cope with it. I have the choice of possibly banning an innocent person, or allowing the possible attacks on someone to continue. I have to rely solely on someone's word. And I cannot rely solely on someone's word!

That's hardly supportive. And I have a different belief, anyway. I believe that this phenomenon that is considered "psychic vampirism" is very rare. And that most of those who "are" (read: believe they are) psychic vampires / psyvamps are in fact energy wielders who have developed a "taste" for energy. It is something that is an ability, that most people can be taught, like drawing. Yes, there are "true" psychic vampires out there, just like there are true "blood" vampires, but they are very rare. That's not something that you want to hear, if you consider yourself to be a "psyvamp". I may be wrong on this. I believe, but I do not know. At any rate, I am not one, and I know very little of how it is to be one. I am unable to offer support to psyvamps. All I can do is parrot some of the basic info to those who contact me with questions, and refer them to other sources. Real helpful... AND real frustrating. And there are so many more of these psyvamps that they always end up taking up all of my time and resources, so that I have no time or anything left for the blood vamps.

The blood vamps are what I am. They are for whom I initially put up my site: to contact, to be contacted by, to gather together into a circle, a community, if you will, of like souls, to support, to dispell myths and b.s., etc., etc. Since my world involves blood, I also expanded this to include and mean those who drink blood: vampires themselves, blood festishists, and anyone else who drinks blood. I can relate to this -- it's very much my realm of expertise... Although I am finding that even within this, I do not have all the answers, nor did I know for certain nearly as much as I thought I knew, I still am very able to be there for these people.

As for the Vampyres, the Vampyre lifestylers, I cannot relate. The closest that I get to the style is dressing in black and occasionally putting on gothic makeup or whatnot. I would probably get fangs if I could afford it or get away with it. For what it's worth, I am probably the closest thing that my city has to a (real) "Prince" / "Master" / whatever. So what? That and a dollar will buy me a cup of coffee at the local coffee shop. I cannot relate to your world. I don't even believe in it. I got so sick of reading about it, that I quit buying the books! And I cannot stand the game: it leaves me angry and frustrated. I am sorry, I have nothing that I know of that I can offer in the way of support. And I get paranoid that you come around here to get ideas on how to make your pretend vampiric personals moer believable, more realistic to others. That's not fair to us. :P The only thing I can offer you is a link to Verthaine's page, and a smattering of online gothic and vampiric clothing and paraphernalia vendors. That's all I know how to give. I do not know what to provide in the way of support! I'm here to help others deal with blood lust and give them an ear to chew off and a shoulder to cry on when others think they are crazy, or when THEY think they will go crazy! HOW does THAT help YOU?

And gamer-vamps? They are vampires on paper. Need I say more? They don't even need to be here, as far as I am concerened, unless, and completely separate from their gamings, they are genuinely curious. All I can do is answer their questions.

Posers: People who contact me claiming to be aeons old...I do not fully discount the possibility of extreme longevity, but I can tell when someone's full of shit. Most likely, if someone IS way-ass old likethat, they are NOT going to claim it; they are going to hide it. And if someone IS way-ass old like that, they won't misuse "Shakespearean" English. In fact, if someone is way-ass old like that, they will speak just like everybody else. And then, I guess that they are so far gone in their stupid littel fanstasies that they forget that the one they are contacting IS a vampire and KNOWS what's bullshit and what's not. AND, is not impressed with mysterious, arcane stupidity about THEM being the vampires who know and will toss little tidbits of their boundless and oh-so-valuable time / knowledge / power / whatever, towards me if I only kiss their butts or something. I take their offer and not only do I reject it, but I ram it up their asses in an insulting manner. I just dare them if they are real to come and squish me out of existance. *LMAO* So far, none of them have. If they were so powerful, they wouldn't bluster and threaten. (I've seen the Powerful, and I got a pretty good feel for how they are and how they ain't.) They aren't real. They steal up what littel time I have to devote to dealing with the needs of vampires. These roaches are not here to learn or gain support. I have nothing to offer them, not even a punch in the nose! I could turn this post into a rant three times as long concerning only these ... people, but I shan't.

If they want support, if they are looking for some sort of acceptance, or whatever, then they should not come in here lying their asses off, full of shit and arrogance. Are they so far gone in their fantasies that they fail to recognise that they are dealing with realities here?! *Jim Carrey voice* I GUESS SO-O-O! Do they fail to grasp what they are dealing with, and who??? Does it fail to occur to them that WE of all people are teh ones who would know that they are full of shit? Or are they just butt-assed stupid? *Jim Carrey voice* I GUESS SO-O-O!

I guess that I am not really so much against anyone (except posers) as I am against my own inadequacy. I am but one person, who is struggling to survive. I know that eventually I will have a way out, a means to make a decent living, and be able to better provide the resources that I know how and am able to provide. But until then, I don't even know when or if my telephone service is due to be shut off? I need to be a team of Funded Individuals, each specializing in a particular area: IRC and log management; dealing with email; website enhancenmnt, alteration, and maintenance; site promotion; combing the web for new, moved, and outdated links; as well as working and earning a living, and housework, cooking and shopping!

You will probably ream me right off my very website, even, after this, but I feel that it needs to be said. Especially at this point, with me in quite a few people's doghouses right now, I wouldn't say it unless I felt it needed to be said... For better or for worse, I am posting this now.

>CLICK<

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Amy Krieytaz
To Sangi: some suggestions
Sun Sep 27 13:18:51 1998


Sangi wrote:

I just get so damned frustrated sometimes. I mean, I didn't mean to insult the psyvamps like I did. I jusat got carried away with my frustration and inadvertently ended up aleinating people when I shot off my mouth in the heat of feeling. I don't want to run of the psyvamps. Hell, I don't want to run off the Vampyre lifestylers, even!
[...]
And I am not a psyvamp. I can't relate to psyvamps very well. All of what they say, I just have to take their word for. If So-and-So says Whosit is attacking them in one of the IRC channels, for instance, I just have to take their word for it. And that leave open the whole wide arena of "just getting back at someone" coz you don't like them, or they irritated you. "Oh, I'll just complain to Sangi and say that they were attacking me!" I don't know that it is so; I don't know that it is NOT so, either. And I truly cannot cope with it. I have the choice of possibly banning an innocent person, or allowing the possible attacks on someone to continue. I have to rely solely on someone's word. And I cannot rely solely on someone's word!
[...]
At any rate, I am not one, and I know very little of how it is to be one. I am unable to offer support to psyvamps. All I can do is parrot some of the basic info to those who contact me with questions, and refer them to other sources. Real helpful... AND real frustrating. And there are so many more of these psyvamps that they always end up taking up all of my time and resources, so that I have no time or anything left for the blood vamps.

The blood vamps are what I am. They are for whom I initially put up my site: to contact, to be contacted by, to gather together into a circle, a community, if you will, of like souls, to support, to dispell myths and b.s., etc., etc. Since my world involves blood, I also expanded this to include and mean those who drink blood: vampires themselves, blood festishists, and anyone else who drinks blood. I can relate to this -- it's very much my realm of expertise...

Thanks for the clear statement of your dilemma. I've posted a message on a few other message boards pointing people to this message of yours. I hope it helps ease tensions.

As far as far as IRC channels are concerned, I think you have no choice but to declare that from henceforth, your channel is for discussion of blood vamps' and other blood-drinkers' issues only, not psi issues, because you simply are not qualified to run a channel dealing with psi issues. Furthermore, you could state that if anyone else wants to start a channel dealing with psivamp issues, you will list it on your site, but you are not qualified to make any recommendations as to which such channels are worthwhile.

If you put it this way, without quibbling about who is or isn't a "real vampire," I think people will understand and respect your decision.

It might also be a good idea for you to put something on your E-mail page to the effect that you are not qualified to answer questions about psi-vampirism or the Vampyre lifestyle, but only about blood vampirism and blood-drinking, and refer readers to the appropriate links pages of yours for info about psi-vampirism and the Vampyre lifestyle.

Nevertheless, I think it's in your interests to KEEP this "Vampire Community Message Board" as a central gathering place for the online vampiric community. The centrality of your site within the larger community enhances the visibililty of non-psi blood vamps, who would otherwise be an almost COMPLETELY invisible minority within an online community consisting mainly of psivamps, many of whom assume that blood vamps are merely a subcategory of psivamps.

Your prestige as a central figure in the larger vamp community has not been completly lost. Your site still gets lots of traffic, because it was one of the very first sites to deal in a realistic way with any kind of vampirism and because it is on everybody else's links lists. I feel that you can and should USE your site's centrality in a way that will benefit your own kind, i.e. blood-drinkers and especially non-psi blood vamps.

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Wicked Kisses
psy vs blood...
Sun Sep 27 22:56:55 1998


What about those of us who fall into both catagories at one time or another?
I have had many people say that, since I rarely actually drink blood, and not much of it when I do, that I'm not really a vampire, but just a fetishist. But, when the physical body starts to suffer from the denial of what it craves (blood) and the usual psychic 'feeding' isn't making much difference, then you have to admit that there is something going on. That there is a true physical need, however small and infrequent, for the object being craved.

Although some foods do help, it comes down to a certain point when all you can do is fixate on every little instance of spilled blood, tasting it on the air, etc.

There are those who, desiring the tragic romance of the vampire, without having the need for blood, may have pushed themselves into BELIEVING they crave it, there are also those who are completely clueless about what it is that they are craving.
Sheer torture, and for years I dreamt of someone who would clarify it all for me. I like to think that I have found People Like Me here. Even if they aren't EXACTLY like me, they are close enough that we can share that moment of "OH! That's what you mean!"

It makes me very sad to think that there may be people out there, who are truly like me, or us, who are being called wannabe's or poseurs, simply because of a lack of understanding, either on their own, or our, parts. Every time someone asks me to turn them, I look at them carefully, and see if they are already turned... more often than not, this is true...

Hugs and Wicked Kisses

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Sasha
What about them... the answer
Sun Sep 27 23:10:14 1998


You ask me what about those who are psi and blood alike. Well, I am one of them, so ask me. I consider myself mainly as a bloodvamp because - as you already said - psifeeding does not help in the cases where the real hunger starts. So please do not imply anything in my words i have not said. I have emphasized many a time that I am both, so I know that such a thing exists. What I actually wanted to say is something different, and i think I made it clear in my statement.

You also wrote:
"It makes me very sad to think that there may be people out there, who are truly like me, or us, who are being called wannabe's or poseurs, simply because of a lack of understanding, either on their own, or our, parts. Every time someone asks me to turn them, I look at them carefully, and see if they are already turned... more often than not, this is true..."

What makes you think so? What criterias do you know to say someone is a vampire even if he does not believe to be one?

I have been asked by just so many people, and strangely, I could not see ANYthing vampiric about them. I am not trying to exclude people who may be vampires who just do not know it, but I am trying to state obvious dangers that this kind of support system has brought along. I have said, I met too many people that are simply very unlikely to be a vampire. For many reasons.

I simpy do not believe that someone is a vampire because he tells me that he has migraine and believes to draw his energy mainly from hugging trees or draining his computer. There is after all a LITTLE BIT more to it.

And I also think that someone who is a vampire knows about craving, no matter how he has tried to deal with it.

And when I hear stuff like

"I have some secondary symptoms, am I a vampire?"
"Do you crave blood?"
"No."
"Well, then it is possible that you are a psivampir."

then I get angry, because people are already lured into the belief that they are/could be a vampire of any kind, without discriminating whether this person just shows symptoms that could also be ANYthing else from lupus to a heavy depression. And I personally think that this is more dangerous than waking up a sleepwalker who might have a peaceful life even without knowing. But this is MHO only.

Only a few days ago, someone thanked Sangi for her blatant and open statement which aroused so much anger among others, because it saved him or her from believing that s/he is a vampire although s/he knows that s/he is not. This was to me a very plain statement from a person who was caught up between all this theorizing so much that she started to mistake her fetish for a real craving. This is self-destructive.

We are no saviors who have to wake up all sleepwalkers for their own good, even when risking to stir up some of the wrong people. We have devoted our work to help those who seek our help. We will always attract some of the wrong people, no matter how careful we word out intents. I have a huge RPG disclaimer on my page, and nevertheless I get emails from people claiming that they are a 5000 year old dark elf which was recently turned into a vampire, giving a person as reference that obviously has proven to be a gamer also. And I care more about those deluded people and how to get their wits straight than for vampire xy that leads a happy life without knowing about his problem but unconsciously resolving his problem with steaks of the rawest sort.

Somewhere we have to draw the line and set our priorities. And those priorities should be measured by our reason, not an undistinguished gut feeling. I don't want to cause harm, I want to help. I hope you understand me, Wicked.

Sasha

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Wicked Kisses
Oops, misunderstanding...
Sun Sep 27 23:53:31 1998


I have this little problem, it shows up at the ODDEST damn times.
I mistate myself.

when I said " Every time someone asks me to turn them, I look at them carefully, and
see if they are already turned... more often than not, this is true..." I forgot to state that these were requests TO MY FACE, and not online.
There have been four such. All of them turned out to be blood vamps. I gave them the benefit of my experience, and some safety tips, tried to help them actualize their feelings of 'wannabe' into reality. I often find that I have a way of writing that seems to be overly inclusive.

And the statements weren't really meant for one person, but to the community as a whole.

Sorry if I wasn't clear before, I'll try to improve my communication skills...;D

Hugs and Wicked Kisses!

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Sasha
One of those days...
Tue Sep 29 18:43:15 1998


This is one of those days where I wish I could cut myself into two halfs. But bullshit, I can't Isn't this a pity?

Without wanting to repeat myself over and over again (and to my knowledge others have stated similar things before), I cannot help, I may be a bloodvamp, but one of those unfortunate creatures who have slight psi tendencies too. It means if there is a schism, I would stand right in the middle. And guess what? I bet that the major part of the community would be in exact the same position.

I know very well that most of us have preferences towards the one or the other side. For example, I am way more a blood vampire. Psivampirism is for me only a tendency, not fully developed and way too insufficient to make a living on. And the only kind of energy I have been able to use so far was that either of single people standing close to me or great masses of people who are highly energized.

Accusing me of trying to cause a schism is asisine and hilarious. As I said, I cannot cut myself into halfs. It would be only a bloody mess. *laughing manically*
Accusing anybody else but me of the same thing is asisine and hilarious as well. Especially when it comes to Sangi. Sangi has been one of the few major founders of this community. Sangi has always tried to offer help to anyone, even to those whom she cannot wholly conprehend and relate to. Sangi has - for the sake of convenience - let things run in a smooth way rather than wording up for her dislikes just in order to keep the environment pleasant.

But things do get out of hand sometimes. As Amy said somewhen a while ago, communities all go through the same pains. And as far I know, I don't know any community that has NOT suffered from schisms, core building and the like. We COULD stop it, even immediately. But in order to do this, we would have to do one major thing different than any community before us.

And what is that? Hmmm????? *time running... running... timeout*

And the answer iiiiiss????

Well, exactely. I don't have a fucking clue what could be done. Well, ok, I have a clue. I have worded it a few posts below, and I still stand up to it. But I know that many many people will not be fond of that idea. I am also not fond of that idea, hell, I have no clue who at all is fond of that idea! But one thing is certain, let me stay or make me leave, it makes no difference. This community has proven to be able to create nice little flames without my help.

But with this new discussion we are actually getting somewhere, as it seems. We know where the problems lie, and they have all been addressed.

Who are we?
What are we?
And whom are we talking to?

We have outstanding issues, and whether these issues will lead to a clarification of terms or to a complication, they are standing out, and they also where before I addressed them. We can go and try to silence that issue. Go ahead. And somewhen it will pop out of the floor again like a mushroom, just as it did now. If it was no issue at all, then it could not have been brought up and would still be sleeping the sleep of the righteous.

But we cannot whine for the lucky and good times when the VC was still a happy little family with no problems of definition or organisation. Past is past, and all we can do is deal with the problems of the present as good as possible.

Kick me, if you want. But this will also solve no fucking problem at all. The only possibility that I see is that the major webmasters finally stick their heads together and make something up. I have heard a few very good ideas that alltogether could make a large and flourishing project. I have a vision of how this beautiful little community could look in a year from now, but that does not matter. It needs to be *our* vision. And if not this one, then another one. But a goal it is what it takes to get out of this swamp. Every solution was only of temporary effort so far.

It is like we built a house. Setting up stones and stones but having forgotten the basement. Ok, shit happens, but it is not too late to work out a nice roof.

Blah, I threw in my bag of two cents pieces.

But when a day has come that the VERY founders of this institution are being attacked for powerlust, and nothing they had in mind was but help, then I think the time has come where I draw a line!

How can anyone even DARE accusing Sangi of powergreed? I mean, I found it hilarious when I was accused of it, but now the same thing again? And this time Sangi?? Not with me.

Think, Virgil, and everyone that is of the same opinion. If there had not been that strange day somewhen in 1997 when all of a sudden three people or four decided to pull up a network of help and support for all those of you who have taken that offer, then you would not even have someone to bitch at! And also not a place where to do so!

So please. I won't cut myself into pieces, even if some people may desperately wish so. Rather I start collecting wood. Anyone got nails and a hammer?

Sasha

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Vyrdolak
Investment (just a thought)
Tue Sep 29 19:13:11 1998


I wonder if some of the concerns are developing naturally from the higher degree of investment which people may be making in these online venues.

When these boards and so on first appeared, they were taken rather casually, and people found a great deal of relief and relaxation just in having a place where they could show up, like a 12-step meeting, and say, "HI! I'm Vyrdolak, and I'm a real vampire!" and everyone would chorus, "HI VYRDOLAK!"

After all, when we tried that anyplace else, we got skeptical sneers or (on the alt) haughty questions from the REALREALREALLY vampires who demanded to know who the HELL we were to say any such thing. But on these new boards, we were taken at face value... to start with, anyway.

But what's happened in the past year is that, as people started sharing more and more personal feelings and frustrations, they started to feel more and more vulnerable, and suddenly they had a greater investment in the group and the venue than just a casual social salon. Perhaps, I'm afraid, a much greater investment than the necessary shallowness of such an ephemeral and anonymous environment really deserves, or can support. So, it became more important than formerly for people to feel not just generally approved, but specifically validated--and that's a problem when you have a highly diverse group of people who are using a lot of the same terminology but defining it differently. All these people were showing up and saying they were real vampires, and yet, despite a strong core of similar experiences, they weren't talking about the same thing. The more personal, self-revealing and detailed people got, the more obvious this became.

As both Vincent and I have found, the vast majority of self-defined vampires out there are conscious of both psivamp and bloodlust feelings; but for those who are NOT, the cheerful all-inclusiveness began to feel cloying and exclusive. It was like a scattering of heteros and gays at a bisexual convention--they were all hearing that they should be attracted to two things when they just weren't interested in one of them, and they felt--rightly or wrongly--that they were being told there was something wrong with them for their natural lack of bi-polarity. Suddenly, there were hurt feelings, senses of betrayal, bitter quarrels, oustings of people for not being vampish-enough, migrations to other, hopefully friendlier venues (usually, they were just newer, and still in the 12-step-meeting stage), and tons and tons of back-scene gossip.

It's growing pains, really. But growth, of course, tends to result in divisions in nature. The question is, whether we can see the patterns from a greater perspective, or simply flounder around in the chaos and talk about how awful it all is and what happened to the friendly good old days!

I should wrap this up neatly, but I can't! I guess I'm just tossing out some observations.

I certainly don't see Sangi as a "power-grabber"... good gods, what an idea! Power grabbers seldom get as vulnerable, emotional and, er, hysterical in public as Sangi does; her deep personal investment here is clear. But those seeking power tend to stay detached, calm, rational, rarely letting the masses see 'em sweat. Kind of like... er... um... never mind! *wry smile*

Vyrdolak

From Sanguinarius's Vampire Community Message Board:

Sanguinarius
hetero/bi/gay analogy
Tue Sep 29 19:49:13 1998


Regarding your hetero / bi / gay analogy. That makes sense. Someone else -- Amy??? -- had said something of a similar nature, but different analogy. Something about a spectrum or a bell curve or something? Like, at one side was the purely blood vampires, and at the other end was the purely psychic vampires, but in the middle was the sort of vampires that you refer to as "real vampires" [ :/ ], who are using both? So it's like a spectrum, I guess. Red's on one end and Purple's on the other end, and Yellow's in the middle, but they are all different wavelengths in the Color Community. *g*

But there are other things with different frequencies of vibrations, that are not in the Color spectrum, like microwaves and radio waves. THOSE are the vibrations that this Red Color (me) is trying to keep from being considered "Colors" -- coz they are not colors. But Yellows and Blues and Purples are colors, just like Reds, but different qualities within the Color Spectrum.

OK, so my Metals analogy sucked. I know that now. It wasn't really intended to be accurate, but just a Funny Thing. But this analogy of Colors, I am serious about, and I have noooo idea if I'm going to get reamed up the butt for it or not, but I am standing by it. If I back down on it later and say "I'm sorry, it was inappropriate!" then I'm full of shit, ok? Because that is what I believe.

The Psychic Vampires are welcome here (with the exceptions of certain ones who want to continue to disregard my later postings retracting my innacuracies and mistaken ways, and who want to be big-assed assholes about things just for the sake of being that way...).

Hell, even the Vampyres [Vampyre lifestylers] are welcome here, coz I do recognise that they have some sort of validity about the extended family sort of thing. I don't understand that, and I don't consider them to be actual "vampires" merely because of their chosen lifestyle, but if they feel that being here is helpful to them, then they are welcome to stay, I guess. I, myself, don't see why they would, though... Unless being here makes them feel more like they really are a vampire. Which I really don't approve of, but... what the hell can *I* do? *shrug* To you guys: Just be clear about it, ok?

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